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Re: Homophobic chanting


I apologise for offending you, bolda. I'll go back and edit that for you.

I'm going to try to explain why there's a difference between say, racism, sexism, homophobia vs. referring to someone by their hair colour.

In our society, people are not systematically discriminated against for being bald or being ginger. People are not (usually) in danger of being attacked purely for being bald or being ginger. People's behaviour is not policed because of the fact they are bald or ginger. People don't attempt to 'convert' bald or ginger people, or 'cure' ginger hair (baldness is different there, but that's cure by choice). People are not enslaved or dehumanised on the basis of having ginger hair or being bald. People are not refused jobs or forced into compromised living conditions on the basis of having ginger hair or being bald. People are not subject to blanket stereotypes about their behaviour, intelligence, and worth based on whether or not they're bald or have ginger hair.

I could go on. Gingerness and baldness is not an inherent characteristic that is routinely discriminated against in society. It's a basis for ridicule, as are many things that people can't change. I'm quite short and have been called a 'short prick' or whatever plenty of times. People also sometimes interpret my hair colour as ginger (beard especially) and use that to make comments. That doesn't get to me. Stuff based on sexuality does.

I was needlessly crude and deliberately provocative in the Kelty match thread, but that was in the context of having had to protect my friend from an angry young man - who had ginger hair - behaving in an aggressive, abusive, and intimidating manner. Incidentally, I didn't say a thing about his hair during that altercation, but we were 'English bastards'. Given my partially Scottish family roots, that was quite ironic - but also not particularly offensive, as the Scots have not been known to subjugate the English on account of their Englishness, in the same way that few people have ever been lynched for having ginger hair.

Again, I apologise unreservedly for having offended you. However, to compare comments about hair colour to discrimination based on race, gender, sexuality, disability, etc. comes from a place of quite some privilege. That's okay. As (I'm guessing, based on you being balding, having ginger hair, and having a child - correct me if I'm wrong) a white, heterosexual male, it wouldn't be immediately obvious to you in the same way it is to some others who are affected by that sort of discrimination and hatred. See for comparison a (probably) well-meaning Jimmy Hill comparing black players being called the N-word with him getting called 'chinny' for having a big chin.

I'm happy to meet you (and your son!) to apologise in person for having made stupid comments about hair colour, and to discuss this further if you'd like to.

Last edited by M00R5, 8/Sep/2019, 10:31 pm
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Re: Homophobic chanting


Blimey, we've got some super clever people on here discussing the etymology (look it up emoticon ) of adjectives! Ginger is a colour, not an insult, it could have been a blond prick or a dark haired prick, and as pointed out a prick is a prick irrespective of hair colour or even lack of hair. I had a short haired prick invade my space on a roundabout yesterday and sit on my back bumper until he could find a place to pass, ironically on another roundabout. Adjectives are descriptive and not insults unless the context is abusive. To call someone a prick may be abusive but the use of an adjective merely indicates something about the prick that may or may not have a bearing on the situation. emoticon

---
What a looooooooooong strange trip it's been
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Re: Homophobic chanting


Please be careful of using the term "ginger prick". I quote The Clown in "12th Night"
"Yes, by Saint Anne, and ginger shall be
      hot i' the mouth too."
Benny Hill style humour to be avoided, plus a dig at Catholics in the Shakespeare quote.
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Re: Homophobic chanting


I haven't commented yet, but I have to say that these are the same fans that jeer at goalkeepers of all shapes and sizes whenever a goal kick is taken...starting with a low jeer ..get louder...and finish with.."you fat bastard"
Now I'm not a fan of that, it's also clear that 80 or 90% of these keepers are not actually fat. It's just a football thing.
So is when kids try to get involved with some older fans...the chant of " you've got school in the morning" and " does your mummy know you're here"... again a normal occurrence.
When an opposition supporter, wearing a pink top to a footie match ,why?, gets involved in banter, the chant is changed to " does your boyfriend " know your here.. it's in fun, it's normal football banter and reaction..I doubt any of the singers meant anything by it. I was apart from the main crowd and there was many supporters spread around that joined in. Not just sang from the main bunch, lots of people sang it.
It was very brave of you to 'come out'on this forum, but think everyone is bigging this up too much.
As pointed out you refer to a 'ginger prick' on the kelty thread, this wee man was actually complaining about comments made earlier to a young female kelty supporter, as I confronted the wee laddie and his da and calmed them down and ended up shaking hands..
I in particular don't like that race for purely family reasons, going back to when I too was wee...but could sence wee laddie was serious and contemplating taking it further as you walked off.
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Re: Homophobic chanting


Thanks Rich. Always nice to be told you're making too much of people throwing around discriminatory language that is rightfully illegal.

Of course, a crowd full of people chanting about the inferiority of your sexuality is exactly the same as commenting on someone's hair or winding up kids by reminding them they're small. I mean, we all have different hair colours, body shapes, or have all been kids at one point, just as we've all been attracted to the same sex and had to face discrimination for it... Oh. Maybe not.

I don't think people were that arsed by 'does your boyfriend...' - I know other LGBT people weren't. It's when people start chanting about '!@#$ faggots' and shouting out offensive terms for gays at random, in the same breath as shouting 'nonce'. That's real, old school homophobia there. Watch out! The gays are after your boys! Perverts!

You might think I, or people who've spoken up in support are making a big deal of this. I knew of at least one other LGBT Moors fan before this; I've learned of more by being messaged by others thanking me for speaking up about something that for various reasons they don't feel able to. That suggests to me it's a pretty big deal that people don't speak out about enough.

As for the lad at Kelty - I called him no names in person, and no worse on here than what he was slinging around. He was being aggressive and talking about something that - as far as we were concerned - never happened. I wasn't standing with the person he started having a go at throughout most of the match, but I daresay he'd got completely the wrong person or the wrong end of the stick. Either way, he wasn't trying to have a calm chat with us about it, that's for sure. Well done for eventually calming that group down. You of all people should understand that sometimes disagreements happen between rival fans for reasons that are confused or unclear at the time.
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Re: Homophobic chanting


I'm actually angry and upset at the above comment beyond words.

Because I get angry and refer to someone's hair colour, that's the same as being surrounded by your own tribe chanting about - essentially - how people of your sexuality aren't welcome in/at football?

!@#$ off. !@#$ right off.

Why wear pink to football? Why not? It isn't illegal. Not only gay men wear pink. I don't think I've ever worn a pink shirt. Why start chanting about 'fags' based on someone's appearance? If you can't see the offensive stereotyping going on there, there's no hope. Why wear !@#$ ridiculous vests to the football and show off your sideboob and armpit and chest hair?

'Does your boyfriend know you're here?' Why? Because you wouldn't be allowed to go otherwise? Because he'd be angry with you infiltrating and pretending in a 'straight only', manly space like the football, rather than enjoying dancing to Donna Summers with him? !@#$ right off.

Why make a big deal of it? Oh, because people who aren't 'real men' are all so touchy, aren't they? It's not as if they have to spend half their lives not talking about their sexuality for fear of complicating their relationships with acquaintances, or being stereotyped and reduced to being known as 'Queer Dave' or whatever. Well done for 'coming out' indeed. Queer people spend their entire lives coming out or not depending on the attitudes of other people. !@#$ right off.

People wonder why footballers don't come out. Look at the reaction to the recent Twitter account where the lad backed down. Look at this sort of nonsense above. !@#$ right off.

When mobs are trying to stop schools teaching kids about the existence of ginger couples, or fat couples, come back and talk to me.

When you know people who are in hiding from their family because they're terrified of being disowned, or assaulted, or even killed if their family found out they were fat or had gone bald, come back and talk to me.

When people are being imprisoned, tortured, executed abroad for being ginger or overweight, come back and talk to me.

When you've been on anxiety medication and antidepressants for a year just to keep yourself barely functioning, to keep your work barely ticking over, putting on a load of weight as a side effect, because a woman has taken such a dislike to your beer belly (rather than a dislike to a preference for males, as in my case) that she goes lying to the police, to your superiors, to your friends, saying you've assaulted her, come and !@#$ talk to me then.

Until that day, !@#$ right off.

Until that day, you will never, ever understand what those words really mean, and how it makes you feel.

See some of you again at some point this season. Maybe.

Last edited by M00R5, 9/Sep/2019, 3:25 pm
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Re: Homophobic chanting


quote:

Mr SoliMoors wrote:

I haven't commented yet, but I have to say that these are the same fans that jeer at goalkeepers of all shapes and sizes whenever a goal kick is taken...starting with a low jeer ..get louder...and finish with.."you fat bastard"
Now I'm not a fan of that, it's also clear that 80 or 90% of these keepers are not actually fat. It's just a football thing.
So is when kids try to get involved with some older fans...the chant of " you've got school in the morning" and " does your mummy know you're here"... again a normal occurrence.
When an opposition supporter, wearing a pink top to a footie match ,why?, gets involved in banter, the chant is changed to " does your boyfriend " know your here.. it's in fun, it's normal football banter and reaction..I doubt any of the singers meant anything by it. I was apart from the main crowd and there was many supporters spread around that joined in. Not just sang from the main bunch, lots of people sang it.
It was very brave of you to 'come out'on this forum, but think everyone is bigging this up too much.
As pointed out you refer to a 'ginger prick' on the kelty thread, this wee man was actually complaining about comments made earlier to a young female kelty supporter, as I confronted the wee laddie and his da and calmed them down and ended up shaking hands..
I in particular don't like that race for purely family reasons, going back to when I too was wee...but could sence wee laddie was serious and contemplating taking it further as you walked off.




All that from a man who shouted "NANCY BOY" nearly every time the Kelty goalkeeper took a goal kick in the second half.

Give your head a wobble.
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Re: Homophobic chanting


Thanks MOOR5 for taking the time to put together such an extensive and well-reasoned response to my previous post, it is appreciated. Thanks also for editing your post on the Kelty thread - I'm sure the words you used originally were borne out of frustration at the incident that had developed, and "ginger" was an "easy" thing to grab onto to voice that frustration and doesn't reflect an inherent intolerance of my "kind".

I absolutely agree that the broader impact of discrimination is more severe in the cases of sexual or racial discrimination, than for hair colour. As far as I'm aware I've never been declined a job offer for having Ginger hair - ironically, I have, on 2 occassions, been refused entry to a pub solely for having a shaved head! However, in the context of verbal abuse of an individual (which was the trigger for the original post in this thread), I think there are some parallels. In such exchanges, the "abuser" highlights a trait of the "victim" which the abuser views as inferior (e.g. sexuality, race, hair colour, height, weight...) and uses this to belittle the victim and enhance the abuser's sense of superiority. The reason the "absuer" sees those traits as inferior is often due to stereotypes perpetuated by society. I know in this case you said you didn't use the "ginger" term to the wee lad directly, but by subsequently using it on a public forum, it helps to perpetuate the stereotype.

I can think of plenty of times during my childhood when I was on the receiving end of verbal and physical abuse about my hair colour. Yes, that was from immature kids, but something must have sewn the seed in their minds that kids with ginger hair were fair game for such abuse. It may also have been a consequence of growing up in a "gritty northern industrial town" in the late 70's/80's, and I hope for my own son's sake that attitudes have moved on in the past 25 years or so.

You raise an interesting point about "ridicule" versus "discrimination". Yes, it's "fun" to take the mickey out of people and make jibes about certain traits. To me, "ridicule" is when both sides can laugh about what's being said - "Cover up Ginger, the sun's out today!" is ridicule, "Give me your f****in dinner money you Ginger c**t" isn't!

One thing is for certain, these posts have lead to some interesting debate around the whole topic of discrimination, its many forms and boundaries of what is acceptable or not. Discrimination is ultimately about the marginalisation/persecution of minorities. What form that marginalisation takes varies greatly, who those minority groups are does too, but its effects on individuals can be damaging in any case.

Finally, I appreciate your sincere offer to apologise/discuss further in person, but please don't feel that is necessary, I bear absolutely no hard feelings, all water under the bridge etc. Of course, if you notice a balding ginger-haired bloke in the Tuck Shop or Drain End, feel free to come over and say hello. I might end up coming across as a prick anyway, but it won't be due to my hair colour!
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Re: Homophobic chanting


Richard, that it's a football thing is no reason to do it. Discrinination is quite rightly illegal in the UK and that includes in the context of football.
The Kelty Hearts programme carried half a page of detail about their "Unacceptable Conduct Policy". I won't bother to list all the things they would not tolerate as we should at least be able to guess, but sexual orientation as well as colour and race are on it of course.

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Re: Homophobic chanting


I said to myself and others that I was going to walk away from this thread after the above, but I think it's worth responding to bolda's sensible points.

I think, to reduce things to their most basic level, all bullying - which is what you've described - is wrong. I barely ever raised my voice or got particularly angry with kids in the short time I was teaching, but that's the one thing I would never tolerate.

I think the distinction is this: when someone is bullied because they're ginger, or short, or fat, what the abuser is saying is fundamentally "I think this characteristic about you is ugly and want you to be insecure about it". In the case of race, gender, sexuality, with all the weight of history behind it and social implications, it's "I don't accept your right to exist in this space on an equality with me, if at all".

It's easy for someone who is a ginger footballer to let childish abuse wash over them, because at the end of the day, they can still be a ginger footballer, regardless of how many times their dinner money was nicked as a child. Literally every gay professional footballer in the UK is living in hiding. It's more than just name-calling doing that.

Over and out.
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